Dame Siân Phillips reflects on her performances as Ann Smiley and her admiration for Sir Alec Guinness

On a hot July morning, I can’t quite believe that I am ringing Dame Siân Phillips, one of the finest actors of her generation, to discuss her acclaimed performances as Ann Smiley. With the exception of John le Carré, is there anyone more qualified to share their insights about this unique character?

Over the course of a delightful hour, we talk about her admiration for Sir Alec Guinness, her recollections of filming, and her thoughts about George and Ann’s marriage. Read on to discover Dame Siân’s uncompromising but amusing verdict on Ann Smiley…

Jonathan Moran (JM): Good morning, Dame Siân. Thank you so much for agreeing to talk to me about your appearances as Ann Smiley in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and Smiley’s People.

Dame Siân Phillips (DS): It’s my pleasure.

JM: Let’s start back in 1979. You were already an established star of stage and screen. You had been appearing regularly in BBC drama serials, including your iconic, award-winning performance as Livia in I, Claudius. How did you come to be cast as Ann Smiley?

DS: You know, during that decade, there was a lot of talk at the time about the ‘National Theatre of the Air’ - I thought that was a bit pretentious really, but it was a bit like that because there were so many actors who were stage actors who were then working regularly on BBC television plays and programmes. We were in so many Masterpiece Theatre productions, some of which were successful, some of which weren't. As it happened, I Claudius and How Green Was My Valley were almost unexpected successes for me. Back then, productions of that sort were being done all the time, and we were never out of that rehearsal room in North Acton. When you went to the canteen, it was full of known faces.

I think they called it The Acton Hilton - there were probably five floors and at least three rehearsal rooms per floor, all packed with people doing top-class television. I don’t really know how I was cast because I was in the middle of Crime and Punishment at the time. I had been dancing barefoot in the street, in Greenwich, I believe, and the weather had been very bad - it had been cold and wet, and there was snow on the ground. I had the flu when the call came to get on a train and go down to Worcestershire for the day. 

Dame Siân Phillips as Katerina Ivanovna in Crime and Punishment

I remember saying, “I honestly don't think I can do it. I feel really bad and I'm just managing to get to work as it is”.  And they said, ‘We’d like you to do this’. I remember asking, “Do I have to?” and they said, “Yes, you have to do it”. At some point though, Alec’s name was mentioned and I said, “Oh well,  of course I would love to do something with Alec”. And they said, “Fine, your ticket is in the post”. So, I got on the train, I went down, and, somehow the flu stopped for 24 hours, the way it does sometimes when there is a crisis. I scarcely spoke to Alec, because I was such a fan of his, and I was so in awe. We just had this one scene to do. So I did it, and I did it again, and they said, “That’s fine, get back on the train”. That was it!

I remember the wind was blowing ferociously and worrying that my scarf had slipped, or my coat was falling off. I thought, should I tuck my hair behind my ears but I decided that would look bad. I was full of those thoughts, you know, which one is when one is acting. 

I could see that Alec was wonderful in the part when he appeared. There he was dressed in character and I thought, oh God, this is so perfect. I knew the book, and I thought, this is going to be incredible. When it was over, I just went back to dance barefoot in Greenwich again, and that was it, really. 

(Photo courtesy of Barbara Franc)

JM: You were just there the one day?

DS: I might have gone down to spend the night and shot the following day, but it would have only been two days at the most. 

JM: It sounds like you had no rehearsal time with Sir Alec Guinness and no discussions with him about the character or the relationship between George and Ann?

DS: No, it was just what was on the page.  I’d read the novel beforehand. I loved John le Carré’s novels and that genre anyway. Everybody was writing spy stories back then and I was reading them all! Le Carré was one of my favourites, but I was never sure that I always understood what was going on. 

JM: I’m certain you are not alone there! Having read the novel, you were obviously familiar with the character. What impressions did you have of Ann Smiley? 

DS: Well, I didn’t identify with her at all. She was a very different person to me. She just appears as somebody everyone else talks about in the novel, and we only see George and Ann together for a moment in each series. They're such different people - there is no way they're going to be able to get together in any way that makes sense at all. There is no hope for the marriage; it just doesn't work. They were obviously attracted to one another for a moment, long enough, for one or both of them to think it could be made to work. Of course, that sort of thing never does work out.

JM: Did you ever discuss the character with John le Carré?

DS: No, I never met John le Carré. I wouldn't have wanted to talk to him about it. I wouldn't have been bold enough to ask him. 

JM: Ann is much discussed by other characters before she appears, and she exerts a lot of influence over the entire story. Did it create any unique challenges, the fact that you were embodying someone that everyone had been talking about? 

DS: No, fortunately not at that time. I was too ill, and the wind was blowing so fiercely that day. I thought, this is impossible, you know? And I was tired, and everything was against it, really. I didn't think to ask anybody anything. I just played what was on the page, but I knew I had a lot to do with just a few pages. I was so poorly that I didn't notice much of what was going on around me. Also, I was so in awe of Alec. I admired him so much. 

JM: What did you admire about him?

DS: Oh, well, I mean, what could one say? I've seen all his movies over and over again. I just love his work. He's a real actor. I know that he didn't come to success very quickly when he was young. He had a bit of a bad time at one point, I think, on his way up. He was obviously a very private person, and you were never quite sure what effect you were having on him.

I remember he came to see me in a play, which was a French play about religion, and if the English hate anything, it's French plays about religion! I was playing Queen Juana of Spain, the Mad Queen. It was called The Cardinal of Spain, and I played it at a theatre near his home. I thought it was terrible, but he loved it so much. I know what he liked and why he liked it, and I knew that he took to me then.

Shortly afterwards, he asked to meet me because he wanted me to make a film with him. I was so knocked out by this. By this time, I was at least able to speak to him because it was way after we'd done both series. When he rang, I was literally standing in a room with my luggage around me. I was on my way to South America to make a movie, which was going to go on for about four months. So I said, “Alec, I’m so sorry, I can't meet you, I am waiting to get into a taxi to go to the airport”. 

It never happened, in fact, and he didn't make the movie with anybody. So, I missed my chance. It would have been so nice to do something else with him that was more than a couple of pages. 

JM: I’m sorry you didn’t get to work with him again. Three years passed between the scenes of George and Ann in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and Smiley’s People. What do you think had changed for those two people in the intervening years?

DS: There is a difference, I think Ann knows that she’s shot her bolt. Smiley knows now that the marriage is over, and I think Ann would have to agree with him. His character looks bereft at the end of Smiley’s People. What is he going to do now? One of the characters says to him, “You've won”, and he says, “Have I?” It’s a sad end to the story. 

JM: Have you seen Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy or Smiley’s People recently?

DS: I watched Tinker Tailor a few weeks ago, and I hadn’t actually seen it since it was broadcast. I was just staggered by the quality - I do not think you could assemble a cast of men like that today. They were all leading players, they were people who had run theatres, they were people who had been directors, they were people who were big stars - it was just amazing.  

I mean, Ian Richardson, Michael Aldridge, Michael Jayston, Anthony Bate, George Sewell, who of course, was known for a completely different sort of character. Terry Rigby, Ian Bannen, you could go on and on, it was just packed with treasures. And Beryl Reid - I couldn’t get over Beryl. I worked with her and she was a friend of mine, she was just incredible. Her performance was a tour de force, it was just wonderful.

Beryl was particularly good in Smiley’s People and, of course, so was Dame Eileen Atkins, who is also a great friend of mine. She was playing against type as a very downtrodden person, which she is not at all. She was so marvellous. 

JM: As Tinker Tailor approaches its 50th anniversary, in your opinion, why are audiences still talking about it? 

DS: Well, because it was so well written. That's always the bottom line. They're wonderful novels, I think, and it was a great script. It was beautifully directed, and it had Alec. Everybody else pitched in but he had to carry the whole thing. He had to be wonderful, and he had to be right every inch of the way. I think if you freeze frame on him at any point, he's always doing the right thing - he does so little and it's so telling. 

JM: What was your interpretation of Ann’s relationship with Bill Haydon? Do you think she had any idea about Haydon?

DS: She may have had an idea, she wasn’t stupid, but she also wasn’t that interested. I think Haydon was just one of many - something she drifted into and drifted out of. She wasn’t good enough for Smiley, she just wasn’t good enough!

JM: I think you’ve anticipated my next question, but I was wondering how you viewed Ann at the time and whether that view has changed over the years?

DS: I thought then that she was too superficial for him. She was incapable of expressing herself, and, in a way, so was he. I think that's why she was so impossible. On the surface, she seemed okay, but she just flitted from person to person, and somebody like that is not grounded. I think she was waiting for him to do something, which he was incapable of doing, like having a big row or slamming the table, something that would clear the air, maybe, but he couldn’t do any of those things. It was terribly unfortunate that there should ever have been an attraction between them, but she behaved appallingly. She was wrong. She was bad. She was no good at all.

Note: At this point in the conversation, there was a lot of laughter!

JM: There it is, the headline for this interview: Dame Siân Phillips on Ann Smiley - “She was wrong. She was bad. She was no good at all.” We have been looking back, but I’d like to finish by looking ahead. You are touring in 2026 with The Greeks - can you tell me a bit about that?

Dame Siân Phillips and Robert Powell

DS: It’s an all-Greek text, but it is very funny as well. David Stuttard, who wrote and directed it, is a Greek scholar. There are big, tragic pieces, obviously, but there's also a lot of humour and a lot of scatological stuff. It's an amazing mixture of things, and you feel you've been through the wringer when you've done it, I must admit.

There are some dates already booked for this year, and we are setting more for next year.  It runs on Sundays, so it doesn't interfere if we're broadcasting or doing something like that. We have two shows - It's all Greek, which I do with Alex Jennings or Robert Powell. And then we have Women and Troy, which I do with Rachel Donovan. She's much younger than I am, so I do all the old birds, and she does the young ones! 

Rachel Donovan and Dame Siân Phillips

I also do a talk about my career, with Richard Digby Day, who knows more about my life than I do. We chat away about my theatrical life mostly, because that's what he knows about. He’s run several theatres himself, he's been a director, and he has an encyclopaedic knowledge and a wonderful memory. I love doing that with him because he’s so funny. 

Also, they reissued my books about three years ago, and I’m thinking of writing another one, so I do book signings as well. 

JM: Thanks so much for your time, Dame Siân, I really do appreciate it. You have shared a unique perspective on Ann Smiley, so thank you for that.

DS: Not at all, it’s been a pleasure. 

You can read our in-depth articles about the filming locations for both of the Smiley/Ann scenes by clicking on the following highlighted links for Overbury Court and Trevince. 

If you enjoyed this interview, you might also be interested to hear Gyles Brandreth's conversation with Dame Siân about her wider career, for his popular Rosebud podcast.

Screen captures from Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and Smiley's People (c) BBC 1979 and 1982

Black and white photo of Sir Alec Guinness courtesy of Barbara Franc

Screen capture from Crime and Punishment (c) BBC 1979